Jonathan Parks:
Hey everyone, I'm Jonathan Parks, founder of ALIBI Music. Welcome to another edition of ALIBites, our video podcast series featuring sound bites and insights from today's leading creative minds. Today, I have the honor of sitting down with multiple Emmy award nominated documentary series producer, Randy Counsman, whose work can be found on History, CNN, Investigation, Discovery, and many others. Hey Randy, how you doing? Thanks for joining.
Randy Counsman:
Hey, thanks for having me, appreciate it.
Jonathan Parks:
Of course, so tell us a little bit about how you got into this and how you learned the process, it's always interesting stories.
Randy Counsman:
So a roundabout way, I started out going to school for graphic design and I kind of meandered through classes for a while and wasn't loving the process. So I ended up dropping out of school and kind of bumming around for a bit and found myself in a writing program and got really into that. But it was while I was in New York, working as a graphic designer in my part-time and going to school part-time, that I took a job writing treatments. So it was really from writing treatments, pitch decks basically, for television projects that kind of got me interested in really, in the film and TV world. So it's really through laying out designs and laying out texts and stuff that I got first into the industry, then I kind of fell in love with it. I've been basically with the same company now for, on and off, for about 12 years now. So yeah, it was a Craigslist ad that turned into a long career of doing the same thing.
Jonathan Parks:
A Craigslist ad huh, that's pretty –
Randy Counsman:
The day when Craigslist ads were still a thing.
Jonathan Parks:
And they found talent in a Craigslist ad. That's surprising. I did try Craigslist ads to hire people many years ago and that's impressive.
Randy Counsman:
Yeah, I don't know if I would recommend it.
Jonathan Parks:
So, you saw a Craigslist ad... You were looking for writing jobs and just any kind of jobs to put your skills to?
Randy Counsman:
Yeah I mean, it was... To be honest, I was still in college and so I went to NYU and I was in college when I met Stephen David, who runs now Stephen David Entertainment. He kind of was in an office by himself, there was an LA branch, but he was essentially by himself. The funny thing is like... So I replied to this job for essentially a development executive job writing treatments and all that. And I went in there, I had no credits, no experience or anything. Stephen basically said you are wildly unqualified for this job but offered me an internship. So we got along, I think just in the room because of our sort of shared passion for nerdy documentary stuff. We immediately kind of clicked on the stuff that we'd liked in terms of what we liked watching, what we thought was interesting, where we wanted, what kind of shows we thought would be fun to work on.
Randy Counsman:
So yeah, that turned into an internship, which then turned into a job and a job offer. And I dropped out of school to take the job and take on a role as Development Executive there. Yeah, I think that was 12, 13 years ago and so we've been working together on and off ever since. So now yeah, I'm an SVP of Development, but yeah, it all kind of started from an internship off of a Craigslist ad. I had no credits to my name, no experience or anything. So, I don't know how other people followed that path, but yeah, that was my path.
Jonathan Parks:
So I actually didn't know that, I would've assumed film school. You just didn't even know you were... You didn't have like an interest in going, a known interest in going to this kind of industry, huh?
Randy Counsman:
No I, so I got into NYU. So after leaving, I went to Syracuse first for graphic design and when I dropped out, I had applied to a bunch of schools for graphic design programs. I sort of, I guess, thankfully now, I didn't get into any of them and NYU is the only school that I applied to a writing program. I applied with a short story I'd written on a whim. So I got in their dramatic writing program through a short story I'd written. Kind of never thought anything of it, but I thought it'd be really cool to go to New York City. So... and I didn't get in anywhere else. So I went to NYU and it was great. I mean, I immediately started working in graphic design part-time while I was at NYU, but I think more than anything as people know, NYU's biggest asset is that it's in New York City. So, getting to look for jobs like treatment writer randomly on Craigslist was a rare, kind of like cool opportunity that, you know, endlessly grateful that I ended up here in a way.
Jonathan Parks:
That's cool. Now the treatments, were they ideas that you were kind of... I mean, where'd the ideas come from? Were you creating the ideas or were they handing you ideas to kind of write up for them?
Randy Counsman:
Yeah. So basically, I came in to my interview with Steven and I had this, like I brought in samples of my writing, which were these long typed, single-spaced Word documents. He basically was like, nobody's ever going to read this, we work in a visual industry. We make TV, we make movies. People aren't sitting down to read a book when they're buying a TV show. So that really kind of reshaped my thinking. So, there was at school and during college and one, I was working part-time as a graphic designer. A lot of what I was doing was layout design, iterating on laying out pictures next to words. So, I randomly kind of thought I was applying for a writing job, but in a lot of ways it was a graphic design and layout job.
Randy Counsman:
So I think in a lot of ways, my first tasks with Stephen were really laying out his ideas and articulating them in a clear, pretty fashion that gave across the sense of the mood and all that stuff. So, I think... So yeah, I started out doing mostly his laying out his ideas and then what got me the job was... over Christmas break, I had started to pitch him a few ideas and I think I started working for him in, like October as an intern.
Randy Counsman:
Then over the Christmas break, I came back with, I think, 30 ideas of my own and I just started pitching him through ideas. I think he called me that night and was like, do you want to take the job? Do you want to work here full-time? It's probably going to mean you need to drop out of school, but do you want to work here? So I dropped out of school that day or that night or whatever, and just never went back to school and started going in full-time. It was really just because I started to pitch ideas that I went from intern to getting the job.
Jonathan Parks:
Okay. Wow, that's really cool. So, pitching ideas, I guess that's the start of the process, but how does an idea... What's the process to put that on TV and have billions of people see this idea. In a nutshell, I know that's a long question.
Randy Counsman:
No. I mean, I think the process is that you're always selling. Even after something's been quote-unquote "green lit", you're always selling. There's always a marketing department that needs to be sold on it so that they put more marketing dollars into it. There's... Sponsors need to be convinced. So it's kind of this constant process of pitching throughout. I mean, the genesis of these ideas, really though, it starts with being passionate... Being, I mean, truthfully, call it just being nerdy, you know, being a geek about something and being interested in having opinions. I think one of the things that Steven and I have always had in our time together is that same shared passion for wanting to do something different and see something different on TV. So I think in a lot of ways, it's a puzzle. You're looking at what the market has done and is doing. Look at what you're passionate about and what you think are the white spaces.
Randy Counsman:
Where do you think you can innovate? Just like any other sort of product you're looking for a way that you can enter the market. So when we started out, we didn't have the reputation that we do now for shows like The Men Who Built America. It really put us on the map. But before that, we were doing shows about history stuff, we were doing shows for TLC. We were doing shows about weight loss, we were doing shows all over the place. I think what struggle is like figuring out what is your brand. It's a lot easier now to develop because we know we have a brand, we've identified a style and an approach that is uniquely us as a company. But I think early on, it's about figuring out what is that voice? Who are you in a crowded market? Because truth is, is that ideas are a dime a dozen and there's a lot of ideas.
Randy Counsman:
The truth of it is that any idea that you think is brilliant, somebody's probably already had it and pitched it in some way. So it's about figuring out what do you add to that? It's like the Shark Tank thing or whatever. It's like, if you don't have a defensible idea, what are you doing to show that it's a real deal? So yeah, I think for us, it's about finding those sort of holes in the market that we feel like... Okay, we know there's something big and exciting that we can do in the history space related to this, or using this technology, or using this approach and reworking backwards to get that stuff sold. So it's really kind of this puzzle about being interested in a lot of stuff and knowing where the opportunities are in the market. Yeah.
Jonathan Parks:
Okay. So are you just constantly reading history books and were just looking at current events and tracing it back to where it came from, possibly in history?
Randy Counsman:
Yeah. I mean, I think for people that I think that are good at television development or film development. It's just that you're naturally curious, or at least the ones that I've met that are good are naturally curious in this sort of... I can't teach you to be interesting, but I think the best way to be an interesting storyteller is to be interested in stuff. So constantly be interested.
Randy Counsman:
There's a lot of... I read a lot about cameras, the effects, history, and all these different aspects of it. Development is a real, sort of 360 thing you're pitching for the whole show. You're pitching what it's going to look like in the end. So the more you have a sense of what the writing process looks like, what the post-production process looks like, what does and doesn't work in terms of storytelling, the better your pitches are.
Randy Counsman:
So, I think it's being interested and constantly reading and... Yeah, I don't, as much as I love history, I don't just endlessly read history. I'm very sort of intentional about it as well. I think that time and your attention is one of your biggest commodities. So, yes, I think I read a lot of history, but I don't endlessly read biographies of Joe Schmoe. Cause I know where my time is well spent. So yeah, being intentionally sort of interested and focusing your attention on certain aspects of history or whatever. I mean, truthfully, it's like history before 1900s was very difficult to sell. So, that's a good chunk of history that you don't need to read up on.
Jonathan Parks:
Okay. Are you... And you're pretty involved with production, planning, budgeting, and everything as well?
Randy Counsman:
Yeah. I mean, we're a small team at our core. It's a few key creative people that are at the center of all of our shows. We've been working together for over a decade now. So, I think that's one of the ways you maintain quality... And that's not everybody's goal. Not that, nobody wants to make bad TV, but I think you can prioritize certain things and one things that we prioritize is delivering the quality on what we pitched initially. So, I think we intentionally sort of have maintained a small core creative team. Yeah. I think it's just so that we can... we trust in other showrunners and all of that stuff but maintaining the pitch all the way through. So you're maintaining your pitch promises all the way through, it makes the next sale a lot easier.
Jonathan Parks:
Interesting. Have you just had very weird experiences of stories and production or any part of a... I mean, I love the weird stories of the ones you can share at least.
Randy Counsman:
Yeah, no, I mean, this business is a... You got to be thankful every day cause it's a weird, strange trip. You know, I've met Yao Ming. I've gone behind the scenes at The Vatican and the NSA. I've interviewed people like Tom Brokaw. I went to the Emmy's with my mom and my sister and like it's all been surreal. That's great, I think it's all cool and awesome, but truthfully it's all the cherry on top stuff. Like it's, I really... My most exciting, most cherished times are holed up in a room, figuring out a show, writing outlines, and nerding out on these topics. That development stage when it could be anything, project is nothing but promise and excitement. That's like the fun stuff for me.
Randy Counsman:
But then along the way, you run into weird stuff like hiring elephant trainers and whipping around the country at the last minute and then running into issues where you need batteries at three in the morning kind of stuff. But yeah, that's all fun, like dinner party stuff or whatever. But the real passion stuff that I do enjoy is just sitting in front of my laptop screen, typing out outlines, and figuring out what the structure is going to be.
Jonathan Parks:
Okay. Where does one find an elephant trainer? I mean, it's so fascinating, all these pieces that have to come together for these productions.
Randy Counsman:
I think when I was entering this business, I came into this business with no connections and I didn't know anybody. I think it always felt like this really intimidating world of like... It's Hollywood, it's so distant and I don't know, how do you find an elephant trainer? It's all so magical. The truth of it is, is that you meet good people, you start working with people, and then you ask your production manager, "Where do I get an elephant trainer"? And he goes, "Oh, I know an AD, he shot with one, two weeks ago"... and he knows somebody that he calls. Then boom, you have the best elephant trainer in town and it's very, it's a small world at the end of the day. You'll very quickly run into the same people again and again. Then, so it's, yeah... Ask your production manager where you get an elephant trainer and they'll figure it out. That's the kind of magical thing about TV. Yeah.
Jonathan Parks:
Okay. So, it's not Google then, it's all connections and just –
Randy Counsman:
Sometimes it's Google. I mean, I've done plenty of that too. Google's your friend. I mean, it's the whole fake it till you make it thing. It's a real thing, if you don't know just Google it.
Jonathan Parks:
Yeah. Of course. Yeah, it's like anything else really. Ask around, ask the internet.
Randy Counsman:
Yeah. You know and again, it's... People want to help you out. People could... You know, there's good people in this industry and if you're a nice person, willing to help others, and you ask politely, people will tell you. You know?
Jonathan Parks:
That's cool.
Randy Counsman:
You need an elephant. Let me know, I know a guy.
Jonathan Parks:
I may. Yeah, okay. You're the guy who can get, who knows how to get things. I like it.
Randy Counsman:
I know a guy who knows a guy.
Jonathan Parks:
So, aside from elephant training, I mean, there's so many aspects put together... editing, visual effects, and of course the actors, the narrators that make the story that you've developed come to life. Of course I'm in the music side of things. So, I'll ask you specifically just how you utilize music with your productions?
Randy Counsman:
Yeah. I mean, so I think for us, I'll tell you. So with Men Who Built America, it's really the show that put us on the map and the way we sold that, we did a treatment and everything. So we sold it off of really a minute and a half long trailer, rip real footage is cut from famous movies with some cards telling what the structure is. But I think what really sold it was we set it to an ACDC song. I think it was Hell's Bells or something, but it hit with this attitude. It really, we knew what the attitude of pitch was from the very beginning. We knew what the mood wanted to be, the emotional states of it. So I think be it writing or whatever. I think we're always thinking about our stories because we tell, even though they're history stuff, they're human stories. So we're always thinking about the emotional arcs of these, what is the feeling? So I think, I notice it's particularly when we're doing trailers for our pitches, but also all the way through the edit for the ninth episode in the second act.
Randy Counsman:
Yeah. It always, music is always sort of the first paint stroke in a way. It lays down the foundation of what the emotional arc is. So I think in the edit, especially early on in our career, you could spend a lot of times tweaking shot choices, language, VO, da da da... When, sometimes that core problem that you're missing is the emotional arc that is driven by the music. So I think as I get older, more experienced, it's looking to the music much more, much earlier in the process to see what is the foundation that we're laying.
Randy Counsman:
Cause if you can sort of look at a scene, a trailer, or whatever, and kind of say like, okay, here's where I want it to... I want just to start slow, be dramatic, and feel intense. Then you're on pins and needles, then it's going to build, then it's going to break here and then boom, boom, boom, you hit these cars. That's kind of how the way I, at least as a producer and I think the people that I've worked with, we talk and we think. It's like if you can beat box it out basically, that you could start to understand a common language of where you want the dips to be in the uprise and flow and kind of emotional state do you want to put people in? That's why music's important.
Jonathan Parks:
Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. Yeah. It's a... and I feel that way with the people we work with more and more, that it's more of a forethought and years ago, it always seemed to be somewhat of an afterthought. It's like, oh yeah, I guess we have to find music for this.
Randy Counsman:
Yeah and I also even just in the editors that we've had experience with in the past 10, 12 years, whatever... The idea of a music bed is less of a thing. The idea that you just kind of slap down a background in a Muzak kind of track, and then you put stuff on top of it. I encountered editors early on that kind of thought that way, but I don't think it's a very common thing anymore. The idea that there isn't a back and forth between image and music under it just, yeah.
Jonathan Parks:
So, I guess you don't hire the Muzak equivalent of actors that just have no emotion and just are there.
Randy Counsman:
We go through a lot of actors. I would never disparage anybody's craft. But we go through a lot of actors.
Jonathan Parks:
That's fair. That's fair. And I mean, are you on the casting side? Are you, you have casting producers that pretty much handle it for you? Casting agents or?
Randy Counsman:
Casting, just like anything else, we do have people overseeing it and everything. I think just like everything else. So, to not have a hand in it is, it seems absurd to our company at least. We're very kind of hands on with those things. Truthfully too, we've identified a few actors that we love, people like Adam Segaller and they just have appeared in like every show we've ever done because we really enjoy working with them. So yeah, I think we're as into that as we are to the locations, the sound mix, or any of that. Just hopefully not a ton, but we're still pretty part of it. Yeah.
Jonathan Parks:
Yeah. You're signing off on the talent scout, the location scout, and everyone else.
Randy Counsman:
Yeah and I think what I've liked about Stephen is, he likes having a creative vision and following it all the way through. The worst thing... It's worse to have no opinion than to have the wrong opinion in a lot of ways. So it's like, this is our opinion, this is how we feel about these same things. So yeah, that said, great casting directors and all that, so.
Jonathan Parks:
Very cool. So were you a big documentary fan before you worked in documentary?
Randy Counsman:
At a point. I can tell you that point was when I was, just turned 17 or 18. I found myself in the theater troop because I was interested in writing plays for a while. My theater director recommended a movie to me and he bought me The Criterion Collection DVD of Hoop Dreams. That was the first movie that was documentary, that just floored me. I just loved it and the idea that it was real, made me super passionate about wanting to do that same sort of thing.
Randy Counsman:
It was coming out of the Reservoir Dogs era of like, oh, isn't it cool to make an indie film, like Sex, Lies, and Videotape kind of thing. I just kind of knew that wasn't my vibe in a lot of ways, but I liked that indie spirit. When I saw something like Hoop Dreams, there's like, oh, this guy just had a cam... or these guys, a camera over four years and just made this beautiful work of art where they see these really intimate moments in somebody's life and get to understand people like you would ever imagine.
Randy Counsman:
Scenes that you would never write were, so emotionally impactful to me that I would remember watching that. It's like three and a half hours long, it's crazy long. And being like, I should just rewatch it right now because I wanted to see it so bad. So I think ever since then, I've been more and more into documentaries. I think from that it led me down a rabbit hole of all of the great documentaries. Then, now any documentary, no matter how crappy, I'll find myself somewhat interested in it. Because I think it's incredible when you can tell real stories and real characters are endlessly fascinating. So, yeah.
Jonathan Parks:
Any other favorites or recommendations? You've always been great with recommendations, especially for kind of the quirky documentaries. I know you recommended Holy Hell to me, which wasn't really quirky, but it's still one of my favorites.
Randy Counsman:
I love The Imposter, still one of my favorites. Anything by Errol Morris is always endlessly good. Trying to think of anything good, good. Yeah, I think that's all I've got for the moment.
Jonathan Parks:
That's fair. So, I know you're working with the legends and people who have been around this world for quite some time, but you're also working with people who are a little bit greener and learning what they don't know. And I don't know, what advice do you have, the newer people who are just entering in and are trying to enter in and figure it out?
Randy Counsman:
Yeah. The biggest thing is kind of like I touched on before, but it's be interested. Be fascinated about stuff. Geek out on stuff that other people aren't geeking out on. One of the things we always ask people that are interviewing to be Development Executives or whatever, it's what are you interested in that I'm not? What do you know about that you're like a geek about collecting, spoons or whatever. Like what do you know a lot more about them that I don't? Not that it's going to lead to a spoon show, but what, how do you, how do I get a sense from you that you're passionate about things beyond what I tell you to go figure out? I think that's something that nobody can take away from you.
Randy Counsman:
I mean going to school for graphic design, as much as that didn't pan out and that I'm not a graphic designer, I mean I use those skills every day. I use this color theory and all those things I've learned that didn't seem to go anywhere, I use those skills all the day and they influence my approach and who I am. So yeah, I would say be a geek for stuff beyond just TV and film. Be interested in art, have other influences. But also, if you truly want to be in TV film, it's be better at it than anybody else, be like the Michael Jordan of it. How do you train to be good? Well, one of the ways I did it was starting, I think around maybe around when I watched [inaudible] Right in that period when I decided I might want to go into film was, I decided not to rewatch a film until I'd basically gone through all of the top 100 films.
Randy Counsman:
I just set a goal to really get through all those films, really dissect them, and spend time like it's game tape or whatever, really trying to dissect what people are doing. One of the best exercises that I learned in school was take a show or a movie that you like and keep track of it. Write a beat sheet for every beat, summarize what's going on, track the characters, and do it again and again and again. You'll start to see patterns, you'll start to see how the masters introduce story. What's the pacing? All that.
Randy Counsman:
Then if you do all that and you're actually talented and you... It's not really a talent thing to be honest, it's about an effort thing more than anything. If you really put in that effort, I think once you get your foot in the door, I would... or I mean, the best thing to do is get your foot in the door by taking literally any job. Get the assistant front desk person, the janitor, get the PA jobs, whatever, because kind of what I was talking about before, it's a small community. Be nice, don't be a jerk, and hustle, hustle, hustle, and people will help you out.
Randy Counsman:
Say "Hey, this is where I want to be and this where I'm at". Even if you're a PA, you end up talking to them... DP, or the writer, and they're not. And if you have a sense of where you want to be, people will help you get there. So yeah, if you're passionate about it, hustle, hustle, hustle.
Jonathan Parks:
So, it is a skillset and something that can be learned and not just ingrained automatically upon birth of the art of storytelling and how to do it effectively. There's structure that you can and rules that you can follow and just like art or graphic design, break those rules when... but you know you're breaking those rules.
Randy Counsman:
Yeah, I mean, you and I have talked about before. The idea that I don't call it art, I call it craft because I think just like making a chair, there's plenty of art and Stickley chairs, and there's plenty of art in Pennsylvania Dutch furniture stuff, like all this stuff that we identify as craft. There's a beauty in that. Even the idea of a painter being an artist, it's like a lot of this is craft and there's rules in the same way that a painter knows how light reflects and a guy who's making a chair that... I know there's a term but whoever, there's people making chairs. They know-
Jonathan Parks:
I know one of those guys, he's very talented but I don't know the name of that profession.
Randy Counsman:
Yeah like there are certain rules there. Yeah, so you can make the weird, upside down chair that's super impractical. But yes, you should know those rules because if all this art stuff kind of gets applied after the fact by a person looking at it, I can look at a piece of beautiful chair or whatever, and I can call it craft, functional, or whatever, or I can call it art. But I feel that way about a lot of what we do. I mean, a lot of shows are workaday shows. I mean, you look at the local news, is that a high art versus a documentary?
Randy Counsman:
So, I would say if you treat it as like a craft, if you like the process, I would say, if you want the Emmys or if you want the award, or you want the experience being a director on set, what do you really want about that? Do you just want to be the person shouting commands at other people? Or do you just really enjoy the process? Because if you're just the guy that loves making chairs and you don't need somebody to tell you that that's art and you just love that process, that's a good life. You know?
Jonathan Parks:
Awesome, I agree. So what you been working on? Anything recent I should take a look out for?
Randy Counsman:
We just finished The Titans That Built America for history, a great series. It's the follow-up series to The Men Who Built America, which kind of set our careers going so many years ago. It was nice to kind of revisit those stories and do it in a sort of updated way. Then we just did a show called Human on Netflix, so that's easy to stream and easy to find. Then, the last one we just did recently was Beyond The Spotlight on Curiosity Stream. So, got some other stuff cooking but for the moment, yeah. That's what I would say. Check it out.
Jonathan Parks:
Well, that's quite a lot at one time. That's impressive.
Randy Counsman:
It's been good, it's been good and after pandemic years and all that, we're thankful just to be able to keep working and all that, but yeah.
Jonathan Parks:
Did that slow you down at all? Or just give you more time to develop more ideas?
Randy Counsman:
It slowed us down. I mean, we got truthfully really lucky. We had stuff going into post, right as it struck and we had stuff that we could... Beyond The Spotlight filmed during the pandemic. So did The Titans That Built America, which was incredible, having a set with a hundred people in the height of the pandemic and not getting a single breakthrough case. When I talk about the craft and stuff, that's the stuff we're really proud about too. As much as we love the product that we came out with, with Titans That Built America, like it's really happy with the process. We had no infections and we had a good, tightly-run ship and made a great product out of it. So yeah, no small pats on the back to the production team for making all that stuff happen and making the artsy-fartsy writing stuff come to life, despite the global pandemic.
Jonathan Parks:
Yeah. I'm always impressed continuously, how much talent and different sets of skills are required to make anything on this kind of scale. That's really cool.
Randy Counsman:
Just to say, as much as everybody likes to talk about the writing, the directing and stuff, there's just as much art and stuff that goes into the accounting of all this. The weighing of cable so that people don't trip and fall on their face. Every part of the process is amazing. It's amazing to see it all come together in this big production.
Jonathan Parks:
Absolutely. It's the skill of these people to work together and everyone to work together and actually
Randy Counsman:
It's a collaborative business.
Jonathan Parks:
All flow in the same direction and make it work.
Randy Counsman:
Love it or hate it, that's the beauty of it is that there's so many hands involved and everybody has their own roles. Yeah, like you say, it's cool to see it all kind of flow together.
Jonathan Parks:
Yeah. Cool. So I think, is there anything I missed? Anything you want to chat about before we wrap up?
Randy Counsman:
Well, I appreciate you, appreciate you having me on.
Jonathan Parks:
Anything? Words of wisdom?
Randy Counsman:
It's always good chatting with you.
Jonathan Parks:
Likewise. Well, thanks so much, Randy, really appreciate it. Yeah, chat soon. Take care.
