Kent Carter:
Hi, I'm Kent Carter of Alibi Music here for our debut episode of AliBytes, our new video podcast series featuring sound bytes and insights from today's leading creators and creative minds. Today I have the pleasure of sitting down with one of Alibi's most trusted composers, the talented Guy Jones. This will be the first of a series of videos where he and I will be talking about music and sound in video games.
Kent Carter:
Hello Guy, how are you today?
Guy Jones:
I'm very well. I think that's the first time that you've called me trusted. Uh, but I'll, uh, I'll take it absolutely. Thank you very much. Um, it's a pleasure to be here. I'm looking forward to chatting.
Kent Carter:
Uh, well you- you've definitely earned it. Um ...
Guy Jones:
(Laughs).
Kent Carter:
We've been working together for quite a few years now, haven't we?
Guy Jones:
We- we certainly have, yeah. And it's bizarre how long we worked together, um, just through the internet and through computer work, and it took I don't know, maybe three years before we actually got chance to meet each other? Right?
Kent Carter:
Yeah. We- we did three albums together, uh, collaborated before we even met in person, so.
Guy Jones:
Yeah.
Kent Carter:
It's- that's really great.
Guy Jones:
Yeah.
Kent Carter:
Um, well hey, we're- we're just gonna jump right into this and, uh, we know you do a lot of video game work, and, um, you know, in the series we're really focusing on, um, like from an indie game developer's point of view, what- what are the kinds of things that they can know that would be the most helpful? And I think to start out if say, for example, I was an indie game developer and I had picked you to be in charge of the music and sound for the game ... And when we sat down, what would be the first conversation, um, that we would have? The- the first things that we would talk about?
Guy Jones:
So the first things we would talk about, particularly if I was directing the conversation ... The- I- I've found, and I- I've worked with both types of characters.
Guy Jones:
There are the characters in the video game ed- uh, developers who know exactly what they want, and they lead the conversation and they say, "We love this kind of music. We think that this kind of music fits our video game that we have in our mind, and these are a bunch of references that we like for certain reasons, and we want you to kind of create some kind of world that embodies all of those things, including the story of the video game."
Guy Jones:
Sometimes that can be one of the hardest things to do, because they already have a very clear idea in their head of what they want to do, and then the conversation is about, uh, working out what it is that they really want and kind of feeding them a lot of examples and ideas and references of my own that at some point we'll find this middle ground that we- we'll start understanding what eac- what- what each other wants.
Guy Jones:
And it- it's really important not to brush over this part of the conversation, or this part of the working relationship, because what you don't want to do is just ... And I've done this, and I've done this at- at the very beginning. I would just be like, "Yep, I understand. Yep. Okay. No problem. I'll make a couple of notes. Yeah. Okay, you want that. Yeah, no problem." The en- the video, uh, call finishes, or the meeting finishes, and then I look at Logic, an empty blank Logic, I'm like, I don't have a clue what they want me to do here at all.
Kent Carter:
(Laughs).
Guy Jones:
And- and it's that eagerness to impress, where you just kind of accept what they're telling you and you think, "Whatever they throw at me I'll just deal with it in my own time because I'm a bit too nervous to try and talk up and, um, suggest anything or even question anything."
Guy Jones:
Um, th- that's why it's really important to have a bit of confidence in yourself, because you- even the game developers that really know what they want for their game, you- you have to learn to talk up as a human, as a person, as a creative, and say, "This is interesting and I would never have thought to have done a couple of things that you suggested. Maybe this is what I would have done. So how can we kind of work together?" And what that will do is give those game developers or clients some respect for you, because you're being honest with your capability in what you do, and they'll also treat you far- far much more like a professional.
Guy Jones:
Um, those are the kind of conversations that those clients would expect to have with a composer who would be demanding more money as well. Um, if they- if you establish a relationship with them where they're kind of walking all over you without- without even intending to do, but you kind of allow that to happen, that will be a really hard place to get out of as the- as the kind of time goes on, um, in development of the game. And the unfortunate thing is that those games can be in development for like, two to three years sometimes. So it can be a really unpleasant experience sometimes if you allow that to happen.
Guy Jones:
Um, the other- the- the sort of flip side of it, the different kind of conversation that can happen at the very beginning of a video game, and if a- a game developer was talking to me, is when they don't know what they want. Uh, they kind of know what they like, but they don't know what they want, or what's good, and that gives you a lot- a- a far stronger position as a creative from the get-go, because- becausebecause you can say, "This is who I am, this is what I do. How far do you want me to try and divert away from what I do to kind of make this happen for you and what you envision as well?"
Guy Jones:
Um, but nearly ... The- the one thing that stays the same for both of these, um, different kinds of- of video game editors, and sort of everything in between, is that I will spend a lot of time emailing back and forth with very small musical clips, and almost like s- uh, signed templates and examples of that. Um, just to give them a bit of an indication as to the different directions that we can go.
Guy Jones:
And the most important thing about that period of writing music is you don't spend a lot of time on it, because you'll probably get a lot of emails saying, "We kind of like this direction, but we- we want you to try something different." So I tend to spend maybe 10 or 15 minutes just creating very simple sound bits with very contrasting styles, just to kind of push the- the- the sort of, um, push the- where we could go with the soundtrack. And even the sound design, as well. And then at some point I know how far ... Whwhen I've pushed too far, and when I haven't pushed enough. And then that really helps to kind of hone in on exactly what they want.
Guy Jones:
Um, I think I- I went down a couple of rabbit holes there, but ... Does- does that- that kind of answered your question, I think.
Kent Carter:
Yeah, absolutely. What you're talking about is the process of finding the game's voice, essentially.
Guy Jones:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kent Carter:
What does the, uh, what does the game sound like?
Guy Jones:
Yeah.
Kent Carter:
It's as- it's as simple as that. And, uh, I like the fact ... You're talking about specific, um, music examples and I found that, uh, in talking with clients that, uh, it- we all talk about music differently, but if we have a music example that we can reference, uh, it definitely helps the conversation along.
Guy Jones:
Absolutely.
Kent Carter:
Um ...
Guy Jones:
There- there was something else actually that I just ... Sorry to interrupt. But, um, but if we're talking about the- the initial conversations and meetings at the very beginning, there's also conversations about how the music is going to work around the sound design. Like, what kind of game is it? Is it like, a racing game, or a- a shooting game? Or is it like a- a side-scrolling game, or an adventure game where you're just exploring around?
Guy Jones:
And that has a really big impact on how the music is put together, because in a racing game, for example, or in a shooting game, this becomes a far more technical mixing thing, and you have to make sure that whatever's happening in the music, it doesn't swallow the sound of the gun shooting, because to put a player into the game, they want to be feeling it when they shoot a gun. Like, if they've got a shotgun, they want to feel like they're holding the shotgun and shooting it.
Guy Jones:
And if the music is too intense or ... I mean, we could get into quite technical mixing jargon there, so II'm trying to avoid that if I can. But if- if there's sound competition there, and there's frequency clashes there, it can completely mask things. And that's, um, a really important thing to establish. So if game developers are listening to this, always make it clear what the game is doing, and what the role of music and what the role of sound design is doing. Um, and it's also important for composers who are listening, that they ask the same question if it's not been established by the video game developer.
Kent Carter:
I think you bring up a super important point in that, you know, music is just really part of the whole sonic world, and, um, and then, um, you know, the sound design itself, or the sound effects we would call it. Um, those definitely have to work with the music as well. So to get a little more specific, um, like, what are some examples? Uh, you mentioned a few, but ... Like, because you usually do the sound design yourself, correct?
Guy Jones:
I do. I've done a lot of the sound ... Uh, I- it's kind of 50/50. Sometimes the sound design is done by another, um, by- by another worker, and then sometimes I do them both. Yeah.
Kent Carter:
Okay. But it seems like either way, whether there's a separate sound designer or composer, that the two elements have to, uh, work together
Guy Jones:
They do.
Kent Carter:
... in order to be- to be successful.
Guy Jones:
Yeah. They do.
Kent Carter:
Um, and then there's one other element, and that's also, uh, dialogue. Um, which some games have, and some games don't. And so there becomes a bit of a juggling act with the, uh, these different sonic elements as well. And, um, you know, what are some ideas or- or tips that you have, you know, whenwhen dealing with those three elements?
Guy Jones:
Well they ... So with dialogue ... And again, it depends on the game, and it depends on the role of everything. So, um, I can put it in a- in a way that composers might understand, or maybe even people who aren't composers but they're just fans of music, that whenever you listen to a bit of music, there's always one thing that is always the forefront of focus, and that's- that's how you mix music. There's always one or two elements that take control of the track, and everything else is a supporting feature.
Guy Jones:
So it works exactly the same with video games. In- in a song, um, the- if a pop artist is releasing a song, like, um, Ariana Grande or something, or The Weeknd, you'll find that the focus is the vocal and everything else is kind of working around that, and fitting around that.
Guy Jones:
So in a- a voice-over led game, like, uh, an adventure game for example, or any kind of story playing game, the- the dialogue has to- has to be the focus and- and have a place first, and anything else that's going around, whether it's, uh, sound design or music, it has to kind of let the vocal and the voice-over breathe. Um, because that's the- that's the part- that's the main part of the story-telling.
Guy Jones:
In- in, um, in a shooting game, the voice-over stuff is usually kind of like, people shouting in the background and people kind of like, screaming or whatever. (Laughs). If it's a really violent shooting game. It- I mean, the- the voice-over is more of an ambient thing. What the real focus is, is how close, um, the person is away from you who's shooting at you, and, like, if an- if an- an explosion happens really close to you, that's the focus. So in that example, the sound design is focus.
Guy Jones:
Um, there was one game that I remember seeing ... And they don't always do this in rally games, but I remember watching, um, some- a- an example of a- a video game that was a rally game that had music chugging along to kind of keep you interested while you're driving around, but then it also had the characteristics of a- a normal rally game where you have really important voice-over telling you where the turns are. If anyone's into rally- um, like, into rally cars, you have that person sitting next to you telling you what each corner is going to do. So the dialogue's really important.
Guy Jones:
And then you've got all the sound design of people that love cars as well, so that the sound of the cars, the sound of breaking, the sound of crossing the finish line ... So in that example, it must have taken them a long time to get the blend right, because they're- they're all incredibly important. But that's probably one of the only examples I can think of where all three are really- a really important part of the puzzle of putting together audio.
Guy Jones:
Um, there's usually a focus, and for game developers talking to sound designers and composers, it's really important to establish what is the focus and to make sure that you direct your team accordingly. Because if you don't, everybody will always just put out their best stuff and that usually means taking up as much attention as possible. (Laughs).
Guy Jones:
So if you haven't got a team working together and understanding what their role is within the game, you can get a really big mess of mush that can be really hard to work with. It can always- you can always get around it, but it will work a lot more ... Uh, it will ... Better together if there's a plan established. And any time I've worked with a sound designer, I've always worked with that sound designer with the music so we can kind of make sure that nothing's stepping on top of each other.
Guy Jones:
Um, it's not as easy for audio editors to duct ... So in- in- in the trailer world, that we know as well, the editors have- do have techniques where they can duck out certain frequencies in certain parts to allow, like, a bit of sound design to suddenly pop through, or a bit of dialogue to pop through. It's a lot more difficult in video games to do those kind of techniques. You kind of have to have it all in place already to, um, basically react to anything that could happen at any time.
Kent Carter:
That's really great stuff. Um, Guy, I just- uh, thank you so much for taking the time this morning, and, uh, yeah. I look forward to our- our next, uh, set of conversations here. Have a great rest of your day.
Guy Jones:
No problem. You too. Thank you very much.