Guy Jones:
There she is.
Kent:
(Laughs). Hey, everyone. Uh, this is Kent with Alibi Music, here again with our trusted, one of our trusted game composers, maybe our most trusted, actually.
Guy Jones:
Oh.
Kent:
(Laughs).
Guy Jones:
Oh, I, I, I, I love it when you call me trusted. I l-, even love it more when you call me most trusted. That's, uh, that's, that's quite a crown to wear, though.
Kent:
Well, you earned it. And, uh, so this is Guy Jones. And, uh, today we're going to be talking about, uh, using assets in your game. And, uh, so when we think of assets, uh, we're thinking about ... Specifically, we're going to talk about things that were created outside of you, like nothing you're, you're creating in house, which obviously for indie game developers, um, that's a lot of interest.
Kent:
So, um, yeah, Guy, what's, uh, what's, what's the lay of the land look like for you when, when I, I talk about that if I was an indie developer saying like, you know, "What assets are out there?," um, you know, "What, what, what tools and things out there that I can use to, um, develop my game, uh, for as little money as possible?"
Guy Jones:
Yeah. And, and I think that is one of the, the key points to pick up on, is I, I, how do I fill out my game with everything that it needs with as little money as possible? Because the fact is a lot of indie game developers and a lot of game developers sometimes have really tight budgets, and it's really hard to develop a game, uh, technically, but also to actually manage to gather a team or gather the right kind of assets to complete your game. It can be, it can get really expensive to do it right.
Guy Jones:
And I think it's a skill in itself to be able to find the right assets for your game, and I think sometimes it's about catering how you're editing the game, knowing that you're going to go down the asset route, because what, um, getting someone ... If we're talking about music or sound design specifically, getting somebody in, a sound designer or composer, to do something custom for your game is a really easy way of getting the feeling right in your game, but it's also an incredibly expensive way of doing it.
Guy Jones:
And there's no really way around ... there's no real way around it. Sometimes, you can get lucky and pay yourself with an audio, um, man or woman who is just exceptional at what they do, but they don't know it yet (laughs), or they simply haven't had the professional experience to start earning money, so they're doing stuff for free. And that's, that's one way of going down it.
Guy Jones:
But I can promise you, it will take you a long time to pay yourself with someone like that who can actually do a good job, and it will take a lot of time and will probably end up costing you money just trying to work your way through that and trying to get it working.
Guy Jones:
And, um, the problem with working with composers who work for free or are maybe not so professional is that you have no, um, kind of fee attached to them that means that they have to deliver. And at the drop of a hat, someone might just ditch your project and you don't even realize why, and you're kind of left with stuff that you can't really use anyway.
Guy Jones:
Um, so where assets come into play there is that it gives you a lot of freedom to take time and search around asset stores and find things that can actually work in your game. And you just have to have a realistic expectation of how adaptive that will be in your game. If you're going to go down the route of getting assets, um, these days, there are really high quality assets that you can get. It's just about pairing it with your game play and understanding the limitations of that really.
Guy Jones:
Um, does that kind of answer the question? I, I don't know whether I went down a rabbit hole (laughs).
Kent:
No. That, that was great, uh, great stuff, I think, um, in terms of working with somebody for free or for little money. Um, you know, eh, that's what the word professional comes in, you know, somebody who's [crosstalk] who's going to deliver on time and, uh, meet your expectations, and there's, like, a formal business angree-, agreement in place.
Guy Jones:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah [crosstalk].
Kent:
... ideal scenario. Go ahead.
Guy Jones:
Yeah, definitely. And, and, and actually, it, it brings up a really good point, because actually, um, w-, we both work as professional composers as, as well, and, um, we've both worked for free at some point. We've both worked for a very small budget. We've, we've both worked as a way to get into the industry.
Guy Jones:
Um, so there are people who will work for free and will work for a very small fee to kind of do that. But I think what my point is, is that there's a, that's a very small minority of the, of the world, a fi-, that's sort of covered and filled with a lot of people who are maybe just testing the waters in composition or sound design or don't really know that they want to do it yet or have got so many other commitments.
Guy Jones:
And there's only a, a very small minority of people that are taking it seriously enough where they'll actually deliver projects for free and for a low budget, just to kind of climb the ladder.
Guy Jones:
And people are out there to do that, but it's, I would say it's almost im-, uh, it's really hard to find those people (laughs).
Kent:
Yeah. And so that's, again, that's where the assets, the, the pre-made, um
Guy Jones:
Yeah.
Kent:
You know, whether it's, uh, f-, you know, f-, characters or music or sound, like, we're talking about, that's all available. And specifically, um, we're talking about two of the biggest stores. That's the Unity Asset Store and then the, uh, Unreal Engine from Epic Games
Guy Jones:
Yeah.
Kent:
... their asset store.
Guy Jones:
Yeah, totally. And actually, eh, going down the asset route also takes away from the pressure of delivering feedback to composers. So if you're in a position where you're building a game and you have no budget, or maybe it's a new game or you're just starting into game development, you, you might not quite have an understanding of what's going to work in your game yet.
Guy Jones:
So to get a second creative involved to write music for your game is going to s-, you're going to spend a long time working each other out in how to do things and how to actually supply the right kind of assets and audio files and even the right mood of music or sound design that will work in the game.
Guy Jones:
Whereas if you go down the asset route, you can often pick pieces up, uh, uh, bits of sound design up or lo-, you can buy a loop if you want. And it gives you a chance to, uh, use audio files at a very low cost compared to what it c-, cost to get a composer in and test the waters and start to work out what works to the way that you edit your games.
Guy Jones:
And I think that's a really important thing, and it's a big part of practicing your, um, like, kind of audio integration and ... Because at this point, if you can't afford a composer, you probably haven't got an audio editor involved either. So you also have to learn how to integrate all the audio together.
Guy Jones:
Um, if you already know how to do that, it's just a great chance for you to s-, test the waters with music and themes and sound design without having that awkward conversation and, and not knowing how to translate the feedback to the composer. It gives you ultimate freedom to kind of sit at home when you're, eh, working at your game or at your studio or whatever and kind of just go, "Nope, that loop sucks. Nope, that loop sucks. Oh, that one works. And that one kind of works, but I think I prefer this one. This bit of sound design does not work. I'm going to dump that and I'm going to buy this bit of sound design. Oh, that's perfect."
Guy Jones:
And that's the kind of ... You can be a bit more brutal with what you're choosing. Kent: And it's re-, it's really immediate, like you're saying.
Guy Jones:
Yeah.
Kent:
You know, it's, it's a, it's a much quicker process.
Guy Jones:
Absolutely. You don't have to wait for anybody, 'cause the assets are all there waiting for you.
Kent:
So you know, we've been talking an-, about, uh, this in terms of indie game developers, but, um, actually we know of, of the big guys. They also use those as well. In fact, one of our clients, he does VR experiences, uh, for movies.
Guy Jones:
Yeah.
Kent:
And, um, he uses asset stores all the time.
Guy Jones:
Yeah.
Kent:
And, uh
Guy Jones:
Yep.
Kent:
You know, the other, uh, [inaudible], I guess there's two other things I'm thinking about the asset stores. And one is, uh, you know, the, the licensing, the rights that you get for that.
Guy Jones:
Yeah.
Kent:
And, um, like, why, why is that important? Why is that something to look into and, and, uh, and, and know, know what it is when you're getting an asset.
Guy Jones:
Yeah. I, and I, I think it is important before you jump into any asset store that you, you know what the licensing requirements are. They're usually very standard in that you can, um, pay for the usage of an asset, but that those assets will remain in circulation. So other people can pay for the license. It's, it's why one loop that you find on the asset store or one piece of sound design can keep generating money for that asset store, um, uh, over time.
Guy Jones:
So although you're buying a piece of audio for your game, you don't own that, but you do have the license to use it. And, and that's really important, uh, a really important factor into what dictates the cost. It means that asset stores and publishing companies are far more comfortable bringing the price down, because that they know that can be used elsewhere and get, um, multiple fees from multiple sources.
Guy Jones:
And, uh, that's a really important point to bring up and a really good thing for people to keep in mind when they're looking on asset stores. Uh, eh, most of them are cleared. You just have to be careful of the, the slightly more independent ones. Just make sure that they, they do have license to sell the loops at a licensing and they haven't outsourced them from somewhere else.
Guy Jones:
Um, there, there have been issues with things like, um, that you, you ... If you're a game developer looking for music, you may come across Splice, for example. And, um, Splice is a ... they do have loops and stuff, but there have been multiple cases where just using a loop, uh, hasn't been licensed in a way that you can use that loop bare. It's a problem that we come into with library music all the time.
Guy Jones:
And if you have that in your game and then sell your game with that, it can cause some problems sometimes. So it's worth keeping an eye on it. All the big asset stores have all of the audio on it completely cleared and they'll, uh, grant you the license as soon as you pay the fee to use it.
Kent:
Cool. And then the other thing, too, uh, we run across is, uh, pretty quickly is just the range in quality that you find on the asset stores.
Guy Jones:
Yeah. Yeah. Eh, uh, you have to be, um, you have to be careful. And I think what it really boils down to is find the asset stores that work for you. Um, and, and sort of try and stay loyal to them, because they will continue to put out different assets and new music. And some of them just churn out a lot of stuff without thinking about it. But then there are asset stores that put up really high quality stuff.
Guy Jones:
And if you know what you're looking for, um, it really just boils down to being honest with yourself. And if you think something sounds bad, it probably sounds bad (laughs). Like, you find the assets that you like the sound of. And if the price reflects what you can pay for, then put a bit of money into it and use those assets, um, because particularly in the past, asset stores have had a bit of a reputation, um, where they're kind of a really cheap way of getting music into your games at a, a massive knock in quality.
Guy Jones:
And I don't think ... I think the tides are changing with that. I think the quality of music and the quality of sound design in certain asset stores, and that's an important point to bring up in certain asset stores, in the bigger asset stores, um, there is a bump in quality. And the quality of the actual compositions and the sound design is actually as high as the custom scores that go out from, uh, high level composers. But the reason that you're getting it at a fraction of the cost is what we've already covered, is you're paying for a license to use something that is already pre-made. So you have to adapt your game to work with the audio that you're finding.
Kent:
Well, that's a perfect lead in to the project that you and h-, headed up here at ALIBI. Uh, we actually put together and are putting together, um, game loops.
Guy Jones:
Yeah.
Kent:
Um, because of, you know, for those listeners who don't know, like, w-, our stuff is used by Hollywood and movie trailers and TV shows and all the high end stuff.
Guy Jones:
Yeah.
Kent:
So we, we have really, really great composers, uh, churning out really high quality stuff.
Guy Jones:
Yeah.
Kent:
And, um, so, you know, we, we realized that there's a place in this industry where, you know, we can create, uh, or format our music in a way, which we'll talk about in a second. Um
Guy Jones:
Yeah.
Kent:
Which is really useful to game developers. And then also price it to where, uh, it's going to be much less expensive than custom music. Um, but then it's, like, yes, it will likely be more expensive than a lot of the stuff you'll find in the asset store, but the, the quality is, is top notch.
Guy Jones:
Yeah. Yeah, totally. And, uh, do you mind if I take over? 'Cause I'm so excited about this. I was, I'm just, like, raring to go, um, because [crosstalk].
Kent:
It's all you, man.
Guy Jones:
Oh, man. And, and this is thing, um, and this is what it boils down to. So the, ALIBI as a company has Hollywood level tracks, and these are tracks that get used in all kinds of advertising, all kinds of TV. These are tr-, these, uh ... It houses composers that get synced with Star Wars and Call of Duty games, Activision trailers. And these are top level composers working at the highest level.
Guy Jones:
And we are taking those tracks that we've been building with them and making assets out of them where they're really carefully, eh, fine tuned to be adaptive in video games.
Guy Jones:
And in previous conversations, we've spoken about how each one of those loops that we create from these tracks can be used in horizontal and vertical techniques. They can be adaptive. You can fade stems in and out. You can use block methods where you're punching into different loops, you're taking intros and outros and transitions to get out of the loops at any point.
Guy Jones:
And it took a long time for us to come up with this system that works and how to edit these tracks to make them usable in games. And when we got to that point where w-, we can up with this system, it was literally like a Eureka moment. And all of a sudden, we were sitting on this huge catalog of really high quality stuff from some of the composers that I'm huge fans of personally. And we can turn them into video game soundtracks.
Guy Jones:
And it was such a game changer for me, and it's been a pleasure to kind of go through it and work on it. Um, and it makes me excited that now that asset store essentially is available to all the game developers who want really good, high quality music. And not just, like, a small amount of music. The, we've got a thousand albums edited and growing. And we are constantly editing our catalog to be used within video games.
Guy Jones:
And I think it's presenting such a fantastic opportunity to game developers who want to get quality music in their games at a fraction of the cost. And it goes back to the fraction of the cost that's, uh, brought in by the fact that you just need a license to use the music.
Guy Jones:
Um, and it, I, I can't stop talking about it when I get going. So I think I'm going to have to hand it back over to you (laughs).
Kent:
(Laughs).
Well, that's the thing. You know, like, uh, most as store, asset stores, uh, you pay a license fee and that's, that's all you're going to pay and we're not going to come knock on your door after your game becomes a massive success and ask for more, more money.
Kent:
Uh, so you pay the one license fee and you're done. And the other benefit or, or I should say the thing I really like about, um, what we're offering is you can come in and sign up on the site and download these assets for free and try them in your game, and, uh, you don't have to pay a license fee until you're ready to publish.
Guy Jones:
Yeah.
Kent:
So that way, you're instantly able to, you know, work with that in your game and play around with all the, the assets and all the different elements that come with it.
Guy Jones:
Yeah. And it's amazing. It's, uh, and the, and I've never heard you talk about it like that, so I, it's such a fantastic point, because they can spend a year, and game developers can spend a year editing their game with any assets that they want from the catalog, build their game up, and then literally just send us a list of what they've used, and then deal with all of that financial stuff afterwards.
Guy Jones:
Like, that, that's, that's pretty fantastic.
Kent:
Yeah. And that's unlike most other asset stores you have to, before you even download it, you actually have to buy it. So
Guy Jones:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kent:
Um, yeah [crosstalk]. We're really excited to, to serve the, uh, the game developer community and, and I will say that also includes VR and AR. Uh, we really believe that the adaptive music, uh, usage is only going to grow and exponentially over the years as, as that sector grows as well.
Guy Jones:
Absolutely.
Kent:
All right. Well, Guy, thank you so much. Uh, great talking to you again. And, uh, I have a feeling we're going to be chatting soon.
Guy Jones:
I have a feeling as well. Pleasure. Thank you very much, Kent.
