Guy Jones:
There she is.
Kent:
There we go. All right, I'm here with Guy Jones, uh, ALIBI Musics game composer. How are you Guy?
Guy Jones:
I'm very well. We're moving house so it's been a bit chaotic in the house. Um, and I'm trying to kind of ignore work emails as much as I can, but other than that, I'm absolutely splendid.
Ken:
I know that goes into, yeah, thanks for taking a few minutes of your time here.
Guy Jones:
Yeah.
Kent:
Um, yeah. So I just wanna talk to you about, say for example, a indie game developer has low budget or no budget for their game, and they wanna have really good music for their game. They feel like it's a really essential part of, of, uh, you know, the overall sound design and, and effect of the game itself. What options would you, uh, tell that game developer that they have for music?
Guy Jones:
I, I mean, that's, that's a really great question. And there are options for game developers to find music and sound design for their games at an affordable price. Um, the first, the first thing that game developers will do is they'll... Really serious game developers will soon realize that music and sound design that fit their game is essential. And the ones that take it seriously, really take music and sound design seriously.
Guy Jones:
It's, it's music and sound design that sets the scene of the game. It establishes what the mood of the game is. And it's also establishes the quality of the game to an extent as well, 'cause if you have really quality sound design and quality music going on in the background, it's, um, it kinda takes the game to another level and finding the right music for your game... I'm not really answering your question here, but I am getting there, um, finding the right music for your game is important because you could, um, take an image of like, let's say it's, um, it's, uh, a children's game and it's like, uh, a baby building blocks, right?
Guy Jones:
You could take a ukulele track and it kind of fits and it works and it feels nice. Or you could take a horror track and it completely changes how it feels. And that's a very extreme example of how important it is to find the right music for your game. Um, there are options. There are even, you can find royalty, free music and all kinds of cheap ways of finding musical loops.
Guy Jones:
You can find them out there, but they're not often recorded very well. They're not often checked very well. Most importantly, you don't know, always know what the licenses to use them, and you don't know where they've come from. And there's all kinds of stages when a music is, when music is written and the really great publishers and the composers do everything from scratch for a reason.
Guy Jones:
And that's because it, it kind of takes away all the legal, um, legal problems that can arise when you're just kind of pulling free loops from the internet. And so you can go down that route if you're just doing it for a bit of fun, kind of flexing your muscles with, um, game development and just trying it out. As soon as you're taking it seriously and you want to go down a route where you think game development is going to be your thing that maybe you can even make a bit of money from, or even just a side hustle.
Guy Jones:
M- music has to take... music and sound effects, have to take a different, um, level of importance. And with that in mind, there are a few ways to get around the gigantic fees. We actually spoke just before we recorded this and we were talking about the, the top guys will demand 2000 pounds per minute of music and upwards, like 2000 is kind of the minimum you'd expect for the top composers.
Guy Jones:
And everything you can find composers that will charge below that, but it kinda goes down in experience and quality, but you're looking at an, an awful lot of money to put, um, really great music that's been custom written for your game. And, um, I've, there, there's one example, uh, that I'm currently working on as well at the moment, which is I'm writing the music for a game specifically for a game, but instead of writing it a custom piece of music and given all the rights to the game, I'm actually remaining, uh, I'm, I'm actually keeping hold of all of the, the copyright and the share.
Guy Jones:
So I still own the music and I still have the right to use it in any way I want to afterwards. Um, so what I'm effectively doing is given the game a license to use music that I've written, but the, the compromise was. "Okay, I'll write very specific music for your game, but I still have the right to use that music in any way that I want to." Whether I'll actually use that music in other projects is, it is, it, it doesn't really matter.
Guy Jones:
I don't really intend to do that, but just having that protection over my art and the ability to kinda create a sidetrack from it, by myself, put it on Spotify, do it in all kinds of, do all of that kind of stuff I can recreate, create videos at will, I can do tutorials online about how I've written the music. I have all the rights to do all that without having to worry about anything else. Um, because I've just offered a license to, uh. the game developer.
Guy Jones:
What that does is it, it brings down the cost to buy, to, to pay for the music because they're not owning the music outright and what was also part of the deal and what is another route you can go down as a game developer is offer a share of the game. So I actually have a percentage on the game sales and that's, that's a really great way to just negotiate with a composer, a way of p- pushing forward and working, um, with that composer. And if you find the right composer that is interested, sorry, there's an ice cream van that's just driven past (laughing) past my window. I don't know
Kent:
[crosstalk].
Guy Jones:
... if you can hear that, um.
Kent:
I, I can, are you hungry for ice cream? We can take a break if you want.
Guy Jones:
I really am. I didn't know I was, but that's how they get you, isn't it, they, you know, you don't realize you want ice cream until it drives past your door. Um, but yeah, and I think there, there are options for game developers where there's, there are routes that they can go down. I don't think a lot of, a lot of people realize that there are those routes. And if, you know, if you know a little bit about how game, uh, how music works and how music is, uh, licensed and how it can be licensed out without owning it, then there are ways to bring down the cost of, um, composers time in a way that benefits both parties.
Kent:
That's really great. I mean, really sounds like a win-win situation. Um, the game developers getting really awesome music for very inexpensive, uh, and then you're able to keep your interest and, you know, potentially monetize the music later on down the road.
Guy Jones:
Totally.
Kent:
Yeah, that's really cool. So say, um, as an indie game developer, you were able to make, uh, an agreement with a composer to work on your game. What can an indie developer do when talking to a composer and sound designer, uh, to help make the music and, and sound design, uh, the most successful in the game?
Guy Jones:
I think where it starts is d- excuse me, doing research. I think when someone commits to working with another person, there has to be an element of trust there. And that trust can only come from looking into the person that you're working at, not in a dodgy way, but kind of understanding who they are and what they do and what their strengths are. So a lot of people will be limited by the cost, and I understand that.
Guy Jones:
They, they might have a particular kind of composer in mind, even a name in mind, and they can't afford it, but that's the composers that they want. They have to appreciate that whoever else they go to isn't that composer that they really wanted. And they have to assess the, the strengths of the composer that can maybe, um, offer them a price that they can afford or a deal that they can afford.
Guy Jones:
So I think, and that goes both ways. The composer has to understand the game and the composer has to understand who's building the game and what they need. And the game developer has to do exactly the same because music is, um, just like game development. It's an art and people are really good at certain things within that art and not so good at other things. And some people are really great at adapting and people aren't.
Guy Jones:
And if you have a good idea of who you're working with and where their skills lie, it can save a lot of time, um, and to lots of pressure and unnecessary pressure, because you don't want to spend months and months working with someone and not understanding why they can't get this amazing, amazing action string sound going when there are ukulele, you know, kids, music guy. You, you they, they have to understand where they're coming from.
Guy Jones:
And I think if they do their research into who they're choosing to compose and just sort of just work with that, I think that's the best advice I can give a game developer. Also, if and one, and once you have that... Once, you know, what a composer does and you start utilizing what they're good at, then if that works in your game, give them as much freedom as they can without like, let them feel their, their way through the project a little bit before you start giving really hard feedback.
Guy Jones:
And I'm not saying, you know, sort of s- step around the feedback and trying to avoid giving strong feedback. I mean, a- any composer that's worth their salt has had so much hard feedback, like both of you and I know exactly what having hard feedback is.
Kent:
Oh yeah.
Guy Jones:
Sometimes and sometimes feedback can be brutal, but we really are tuned to work with feedback. We understand what it is, and we don't take offense to it. But if, if you take a bit of time to let the composer find their feet and kind of feel their way through a project, it can have a really great impact on the whole project. And it can actually surprise you as the game developer where your game can go. I had some, I I've been working on a project recently where I've had almost all creative control of where I wanted to take the sound.
Guy Jones:
He, um, the game developer literally just said, "Guy, do what you think fits the picture. And we'll go from there." And my initial feeling was, "Oh my God, what do I do? I have no idea how to approach this now." Because I'm so used to very direct feedback and brutal honest feedback going through the, going through it, that I kind of freaked out for a little bit, but then after a bit of time, I thought about it. And I, I came to the conclusion that actually this is my chance to express myself.
Guy Jones:
And what that did is it allowed me to really dig deep into what I was good at and focus on it and tune it. And then once, um, the game developers saw what I was really geared towards doing, that's when he started pointing in a bit of feedback I did in a couple of, um, pennies of thoughts and just telling me where I can kind of shape it and take it, but still keeping it quite broad and keeping it, um, open. I would work to those things feeling pretty good about myself because he was, you know, sort of directed me a little bit.
Guy Jones:
And, and then when he got to crunch time and we were fine tuning, that's when he was like, "Oh, there's a little bit of, of something there that's just poking out of the game, or it's clashing with this bit of sound design. Can we just take it out?" And, and that work and experience is exactly what I'm talking about, that kind of to and from, and just having a bit of trust in your team really is what it boils down to.
Kent:
That's really cool. Did this, uh, game developer, did they just have a general sense of the kind of music that they wanted? Uh, like did they do some maybe research and give you some kind of references or anything like that?
Guy Jones:
They, yeah, they totally, yeah, they totally did. Um, they, they gave me quite broad references and it was kind of like, they gave me a list of things and they said, um, you know, we really like, uh, the element of this track. I think one of them was a food fighters track actually, but it's understanding what they're taken from that food fight, what they were taken from that track.
Guy Jones:
This is like a post-apocalyptic game, by the way. So food fighters music doesn't really work in that world for me. And it wasn't what I was gonna write, but what the game developer was trying to show me is there was a, there was a feeling, um, that, that food fighters track, had that he associated with the game. It was nothing to do with the actual music that was within it, but it was a feeling and he, he made that very clear.
Guy Jones:
So I knew that, okay, so he doesn't want big drums and rock guitars and Dave Grohl, but he wants (laughs), um, that kind of cinematic sort of structure and that kind of modern, I mean, I know food fighters, you don't really call them modern anymore (laughs). I call them modern. Um, but that's an example of using a reference and explaining yourself, 'cause so sometimes clients, and this goes with the game, uh, development world, it goes with trailers and TV and advertising.
Guy Jones:
People find it quite hard to explain what they mean when they're using references. So if you go with a sort of off piece, uh, reference like the food fighters for a post-apocalyptic game, kind of try and explain what that reference is doing, that makes you excited and kind of why you associate that reference with your game. And then he gave me a bunch of others, whereas this is more like the music that I like, uh, that I think would suit the game.
Guy Jones:
It was kind of like dark droney stuff. And, um, there was, uh, the Haxan Cloak who's a, a really great, um, how he did a, a Midsommar, which is like a horror, horror film, but it's all sort of sense and, um, dark drones. And I was just like, "Oh, that's cool. I like that guy." So I, I kind of knew where I was going, but he, when I said he gave me the freedom to kinda do whatever I want. He then didn't stamp on whatever I sent him. He kind of assessed what I did and, you know, just said, "This is cool keep going." I was like, "Cool."
Kent:
Oh, that's very cool. Yeah. I found that, um, everybody has a different sort of language when they're, uh, that they're using to describe music.
Guy Jones:
Yeah.
Kent:
And if you just have a reference track, then, uh, you both can refer to that. And that, that often, uh, really helps the direction of the music be successful and the sound design as well.
Guy Jones:
Totally. There was a, I, I wanted to quickly, but in with one, one thing that I, I had this in relation to that terminology thing that, um, we have differently with game developers and, um, and clients in, in all the media. And I was working on one game and for ages and ages, he, uh, the person who was giving me feedback, he was referring to the base layer, right.
Guy Jones:
And so this is one of the first of games that I worked on. So I was in the base layer. Okay what's the base layer? The base, the base guitar, right? Or it's the low end? The like the base layer. Um, what's he actually meant was layers of, um, how, um, adaptive music works in game play. Like he was on about having the basic layer that's always playing.
Guy Jones:
And then the stacks of other instruments that go in and out throughout the game, depending on what's happening within the gameplay. So for ages, there was this terminology clash where he was saying like, "I think the base layer needs to do this a bit more. I think it needs to speed up in the base layer." And I was like, "Oh, okay, I'll play a bit quicker on the bass guitar (laughs) or, you know, uh, the kick drum going a bit faster or something.
Guy Jones:
Um, but it's not what he meant at all. He, he, he, he was talking about it in the base layer as in the foundation layer of the loop where everything else is gonna work around. So that that's one really good example of how terminology can, can throw you.
Kent:
Oh, that's a great example. So you've talked about how, uh, you know, your, the project you're working on right now is, sounds like it's going really great
Guy Jones:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kent:
... and really fulfilling. Um, just curious if you've ever worked on projects that, uh, maybe didn't go so well or more difficult and, and what you learned from that.
Guy Jones:
Yeah. I mean, I've, yeah, there, there was one, and of, of course I'm not, I'm not gonna name names 'cause also I'm, I'm super proud of everything that I've worked on. Um, but sometimes projects take years like years. And I really mean years (laughs). I won't say how many years, because it's quite staggering, but sometimes there, there's so much, um, working behind the scenes to build a game, particularly a big game.
Guy Jones:
Now this particular game is a PlayStation game. It was an old style, um, PlayStation game, but the music was absolutely key. Uh, the, the way the music had to be worked, the way the music had to link up, it was, it, it was really complex. The, the transitions that ha- we had to work with and the way that I was building the whole tracks, it was all built around interaction and, and, and anything can happen at any time.
Guy Jones:
And it needs to shoot to so many different tracks. It's like this big, this big, big world. And it was really complicated. And it was probably one of the most stressful experiences, experiences of, I think probably of any project I've worked on in any kind of media. Um, and we, we know really well what it's like to work in, in a pretty high stress, um, tight deadline world.
Guy Jones:
And, and this was really hard because it was the, the feedback that I got was incredibly rigid. It, it kind of plays into what I said earlier about, um, knowing a composer's skill set and what they're really good at and what they're not so good at. And it was one of those projects where I didn't feel like I was in control of it. And I was constantly trying to kind of, uh, sort of claw my way out of each track that I was submitting to get feedback.
Guy Jones:
And it was almost like I would send off a track for feedback and there would just be this, this feeling of dread, because I knew that there would be something else that would come back, um, to fix. And I I've said it before. We're really used to feedback and we get all kinds of feedback. We get lots of revisions for lots of things, but then there's a sort of tipping point where if you're just constantly nitpicking at really small details and it goes round and round and round, I think there's a bigger problem than just asking the composer to change tweaks and change things.
Guy Jones:
There there's something being missed. And I think it's a sort of wider idea of what the project is supposed to be or what the project is supposed to be delivering. And, and I, I really struggled with that because it was really, really long hours. And in the end, I'm incredibly pride of what it was done, uh, what, what we put together. Um, I was also incredibly proud of how I managed to f- fix all of this music together and have it all work in an interlocking.
Guy Jones:
And to be honest, it has been the hardest thing I've ever had to do with audio and, and composing music. Everything else I've done since then has honestly felt like a walk in the park. And I really mean that, and I'm not saying every project has felt super easy, but compared to that, everything else has, I have felt really on top of, I know, um, what to do with audio, um, massively since that project is taught me an awful lot.
Guy Jones:
Um, but it, it also, it's also taught me that mentally, you have to sometimes not detach yourself too much, but you have to deta- you, you... We know that you have to detach yourself from feedback, but it's also important to detach yourself from certain projects. And I'm not saying that I would have left that project 'cause I really wanted to see it through and get it done, but I say no to more stuff now.
Guy Jones:
Um, and I'm still not knocking that project. I'm still super proud of it, but it's really taught me where to put my time and value my time so much. And there, there's so many positives that you can take out of any project like that I think.
Kent:
Yeah. I, uh, I really hear you on, on all of that. I think the challenge for us as composers and sound designers for video games is, uh, we wanna make our clients happy. That's our number one job. And so whatever feedback we get our challenges to, to make that as musical as possible.
Guy Jones:
Yeah, sure.
Kent:
And sometimes that's easier than other times (laughs).
Guy Jones:
Absolutely. It, it's really hard like, uh, making music that's that's non-linear and that can work in all kinds of editing formats. I think it, it's really tricky to then know how to do that, to an extent where you can forget about the technical side of what you need to do and focus back on what it is that you love to do, which is write music and write music with passion, write music with, um, creative, with creativeness and, um, write music that you're loving as well.
Guy Jones:
I, I think for g-, for game composers. And this is really important I think for game developers who are approaching new composers. They might not actually know the technical side of getting games working within a game. So they might not quite have the, the loop in thing down transitions can in and out of loops the, if depending on how you're editing it, intros and outros layers of different dynamic layers, uh, that technical side, even if the composer is incredibly talented and has sent you a track that has blown you away, they might not have the skillset to get that technical stuff down.
Guy Jones:
So if you're going for a composer that can do you a, a less of a fee because it's one of their first games is important to remember, to give them a bit of extra time to keep, um, keep that in mind and, and work through all the technical stuff, because the technical stuff of putting game music together is the hardest element of writing music for games with that I, I really mean that. And I think that's only because we've all learned to write, um, either orchestral pieces or rock tunes or trailer music where it's all linear and it's all, um, it's got a start and a finish and we can use that sort of two minutes or three minutes to tell a story.
Guy Jones:
And we know we started off in a certain way and we kind of tell the story until it gets to this big climax at the end and finishes off the story and game music is incredibly different. And somehow we need to put that emotional story across in a non, uh, a non-linear track that's gonna continue to loop and loop until the player has l- l- left a level or moved onto the next stage or completed a, a block puzzle or something. And that's really hard, but once a composer knows how to do that, and they're confident with it game music is such a joy. It really is.
Kent:
This is all great information, Guy. I super appreciate you taking the time. And, uh, maybe you can go chase down that ice cream truck and get your fix.
Guy Jones:
If it's still there. I don't know when it came down I mean-
Kent:
(laughs)
Guy Jones:
... I, I can still hear it. It's quite a small town, so I, I can still hear it kind of circling around the town. So maybe I can, you know, look a bit crazy and go running after an ice cream van (laughs).
Kent:
Go for it.
Guy Jones:
Hey, have a great evening. And, uh, I look forward to chatting with you soon.
Kent:
Yeah. Cheers
Kent:
Bye.
