Guy Jones:
Jordan, I'm really looking forward to this chat because we've been talking and working together for about a year, maybe even more.
Jordan Morris:
Maybe a bit more. Yeah.
Guy Jones:
I think it has been a bit more. And it's been really fun to learn how a game developer works. I've worked with a few game developers. And it's always been different. And I think that's why it's so hard to get certain aspects of game development right and also teach it. I think it can be a really tricky subject. But we're going to talk today a little bit about how game music and sound effects are used and really focus on your experience with that from the beginning of when you started game development to this day. And how we're working together now on a custom score and sound effects for your game.
So I'd really like to start this off with just a bit of insight in your background. When did you start developing games? And why did you start developing games?
Jordan Morris:
All right. So I didn't study game development, or computer science, or anything related to programming at all. I actually studied architecture. So I was more of like the artistic side of things. But to be honest, what got me into game development was just a really bad day at my 9:00 to 5:00 office job.
“ But to be honest, what got me into game development was just a really bad day at my 9:00 to 5:00 office job.” Jordan Morris
The company was great. But everybody has these bad days and stuff. So I just came home one day, and I was so frustrated that I was like, wow, I got to do something else with my life. I got to find something else that I can feel passionate towards and spend energy and effort into that. And I don't really know why I thought of game development. It was just this thing of I like games, and I like art, and stuff like that so maybe those would be a good match.
And I assumed already that it's almost 2020, 2019 I think it was at the time. There's probably tutorials on YouTube of how to do this. So that's basically just where I started. Yeah, basically, ever since then, I haven't really stopped. It's my passion. And now, I've been able to quit my job thanks to a successful Kickstarter campaign. And now, I'm trying my best to go at it full time and become a full time developer. It's still weird for me to be referred to as a game developer.
Guy Jones:
It's still weird for me to think about being a full-time composer. And it never gets old. Sometimes, I have like a really stressful week. And I feel like I'm not doing good work, or I'm not going down the right path, and I'm just freaking out. And then I realize, hang on, I get up and I make music every single day. And you can't knock that. And it's just the same for you. You wake up, and you make video games every single day.
Jordan Morris:
Yeah. Yeah, it's the classic imposter syndrome, isn't it?
Guy Jones:
Yeah, totally. I think all creative suffer with it. I think if a creative didn't suffer with it, they'd probably not be in the right industry. So maybe that's a bit harsh. I don't know.
Jordan Morris:
To be honest, I remember when I was just at work like 9:00 to 5:00 job, you get it as well. I had promotions to be a team lead and stuff and I was thinking bloody hell, I'm not-- I've got to lead now. And then other days, you think, yeah, I've got this. I can do this.
Guy Jones:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly the same.
Jordan Morris:
Swings and roundabouts.
Guy Jones:
Yeah. Yeah, except I suppose when you're in something like game development or composition, you've also got your true passion put into it. And then the whole of the outside world judging everything that you put out as well.
Jordan Morris:
Yeah. It's a difficult thing to balance I think. Again, it just comes in waves. There are days where you feel on top of the world, and you could push something out. You could receive nasty comments, and you wouldn't care. You just wouldn't care, because you're on top of the world. And you're like, yeah, that's your opinion out of thousands of opinions that are out there. It doesn't matter.
But when you're on them low days, and then you get them type of comments, you start feeling pretty bad. Because it is your passion, and you put so much effort into it and just for somebody to take five seconds and leave a crappy comment, it just gets you down. But it is what it is.
Guy Jones:
Yeah. You can't control those people. And I suppose you can't let them control you either. Because they have no idea the blood, sweat, and tears that have gone into each moment of the game or anything.
Jordan Morris:
And as long as you're happy with the result, that should be what's most important, what you're happy with. As long as you know deep down inside truly that this is good, then just look for comments that reflect that. And that's it.
Guy Jones:
Yeah. That's amazing. I think that resonates with me in a very similar way, but also in a very different way. Because it's exactly where I went with music and working in 9:00 to 5:00 jobs and not being satisfied in that, because I had such a burning desire to be a musician of some sort. That I literally just did anything I could to make that a reality. And it landed me in the world of composition, in TV, and film, and library, and then later in video games as well.
And I think it's the path of most people that are creative. They start in this job that they absolutely hate that just fuels this fire to do something better with their life. And I think game development is exactly the same as tha
Jordan Morris:
Yeah, totally. Now, that I've discovered this passion, I'm really going for it. I know how I said I wasn't actively looking for it. But now that I've found it, it's something that I'm very actively pursuing. We also ran a Kickstarter campaign back in October last year, which was successfully funded. This for me is the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to really have a crack at it and make it a full time thing and a full time job.
Sound Design for Video Games
Guy Jones:
Yeah, totally. And I want to talk mostly about Haiku as well as we get into the conversation. But just before we go down that path, what did you start building to begin with? And also, if you have a little think about what would you do about music? Because obviously, game development and a passion in game development is very different to music. And although, a lot of game developers love music and game music, it's a completely different skill to know how to find music and implement music. So were your first goes at making video games, did it include any music or sound effects? Or did you find stock sounds from places?
Jordan Morris:
I think I didn't use any sound effects at the beginning. Then you quickly realize that you need sound effects. [LAUGHS] And I just basically just looked online for free sound effects. But it's very difficult, because it's a talent to have that ear where you can figure out what goes right and what goes well. There are things that you know just don't go well, but you just don't really understand why. Separately, they sound very good. But then together, you're just like, oh, my God, that sounds awful.
I think it's actually quite difficult using light free sound effects. But that's basically how I started. It's just go into I think there's a website called freesound.org. Especially when I started, I did very, very simple games. And they didn't really actually require that many sound effects. So it wasn't too bad. But moving on to Game Jams and stuff like that, it's usually like a commonplace for game developers to go to just freesound.org and just rip some sounds from there. And that's it.
Guy Jones:
Yeah. It's tricky, because every game needs sound. I think if you don't have the sound effect, particularly sound effects I think it's good to focus on that for a bit before we talk about music and the role that music has on video games. But sound effects, it's very easy to change the feeling of a game with the right sound effects. And if you don't have them in there-- I've always found watching any game play without any sound, you lose your bearings of what's actually going on.
And even to the extent of what we were doing a couple of weeks ago where, we have a separate sound for when a sword hits an enemy and a separate sound for when the sword misses. And it's those audio cues that gamers hear that make them understand the game and what they're trying to do.
“ And even to the extent of what we were doing a couple of weeks ago where, we have a separate sound for when a sword hits an enemy and a separate sound for when the sword misses” Guy Jones
I think if you don't have a resource where you can get really good sound effects or even just any sound effects-- well, I think you need them. I think some sound effects is needed no matter what.
Jordan Morris:
Yeah, for sure. When I first started, I didn't have any sound effects. And for me, it was like the visuals almost. I would try to make the visuals look like as if they had sound effects. It sounds very weird. But when you saw a visual that it would play some sound effect in your head. But I think I was just like super naive at the beginning. Because ever since, we've worked on sound effects. And we've got some really good sound effects in the current game for Haiku. It just adds so much. I think you've ruined it for me now. Because I just can't make anything without sound effects. Because I just look at it, or I'm playing it, and I'm just like oh, man. This feels so limp and so lifeless and stuff. So it ruined it for me now.
But they are important.
Guy Jones:
Yeah, super important. And when sound effects are done well, and they're done with care, and particularly, if you have the luxury of having someone writing custom sound effects for the game, you can start adding so much depth to the whole game. You can start adding the atmosphere. When we have certain enemies at certain distances, all of that is implemented. And that just makes such a big difference, because it changes how the gamer plays.
You'll walk into an area and you'll hear something in the background that you can't see. And immediately, they know if it's an enemy or not. And it might be an enemy in the distance that you can't see, and then they come into focus, and the sound gets louder. And that really affects how a gamer plays. And it infects the intensity of the game and how they go about playing it.
“ You'll walk into an area and you'll hear something in the background that you can't see. And immediately, they know if it's an enemy or not.” Guy Jones
It spurs on all that extra stuff that happens with gamers when they get excited about it like speed running. Because if they know something's in the distance, they can react to it better. And if you got game of speed running and they're recording that online, and they're sharing in that game, then that can only be a win-win for the whole project.
Using Pre-Made Assets
Jordan Morris:
Oh, totally. I think one of the number one highlights from the demo that we did for the Kickstarter was the sound design. Everybody just loved the sound effects. Especially for the game, which is Metroidvania, which is very focused on the abilities. Literally, every single video that I watched of people playing the demo were like, wow when that power up sound effect came straight in. And it excites players. Them audio cues definitely helps.
Spaces, now that I've thinking about it more, there's definitely spaces where I could have pushed some library. Well, there are game developers that knock people for using prepaid assets or premade assets that they paid for and stuff like that. But there are some amazing games out there that have used all of these assets even visual assets, sound assets, and all this stuff, that they pay a small fee for. The composer still keep licensing and stuff like that. So they could just use it for their game. But they're great. And there's game development conference talks on this one guy that basically just used assets for everything.
Because he's straight up just says, I don't have the experience to write music. And I'm pretty bad at visuals. So he just basically buys assets. The visuals he can tweak a little bit. So they don't look so asset packy.
But the music and stuff like that, he said that he bought so many assets from this one guy. That the guy reached out to him and said, if you need anything like custom made. And eventually, they had just a few custom made bits. But the majority of it was just stuff that he'd already made. Totally. These libraries definitely work.
Guy Jones:
Yeah. And I definitely think as well that the library that we've built with Alibi, it's a different level of quality. Because library music, years and years ago in the TV and film industry, it wasn't considered-- well, no, I suppose it was. It was considered a cheap option. And the music was a little bit s sounding and a little bit stamped on a little bit.
And that has completely changed over the last-- I suppose in the last 10 years. It's just slowly developed. And the quality is absolutely outstanding. And the level of skill in the producers and the composers is absolutely top level. And everybody wants to write for music libraries in the production music world, and for TV, and film, and trailers. Everybody wants to do it. And Alibi, now, who have got a really good placeholder in the industry and have got all these credits in TV, and film, and trailers, that catalog now has been edited for video games.
So all of a sudden, there's this massive catalog of assets that can be used at a really good price. And they could just be dragged and dropped into your game. And that's pretty unique now. And I think the way that the catalog has been shaped, it's going to really push that drive of quality towards getting assets and really high quality assets. And I think it's going to have a similar impact in video games now as well as it did for both film and TV.
Jordan Morris:
If money is an issue and it usually is for first time game developers or independent game developers, then there's no shame in going for a cheaper option. As long as the end result is still good quality, then it doesn't really matter, does it?
Guy Jones:
No. It really doesn't. And getting composers on, to write a custom soundtrack who know what they're doing, is expensive. It's so expensive. And the reason for that is because the level of composers for a video game has to be so high. For a composer to be considered a full-time composer who can work on a custom score, he or she demands a price. And unfortunately, for a lot of indie game developers just starting, that price is unreachable
And the reason the price could be so high is-- and I suppose I'm going to bring it back to film, and TV, and trailers, and stuff. Because there are other ways we earn money in that industry and that's on backend royalties by PRO companies. Whereas in video games, generally, everything is bought out. So you buy a composer right. So you pay in full where you need to own the soundtrack basically.
And that's why it ends up being so expensive. So to have a library of really great assets, the quality is just as good as any other composers that would do. But they've all been pre-edited and made ready for video games over the course of a year. We spent ages building this catalog up. And it just gives that option to license music out and to have that music at a much smaller cost. And I'm really excited about it. I think it's really cool. And there's always going to be a world where music needs to be custom written like the game that we're doing. But there's also a world that can grab assets and high quality assets from music libraries like Alibi. And I think that's really exciting.
Jordan Morris:
Why aren't we using this music Alibi?
The Importance of Music in Games
Guy Jones:
Maybe we should. Maybe we should. All the work is done. I suppose the real work is sourcing the audio in the first place. It's not so much implementing it and the time it takes to put it in. But it's finding a really good solution for your video game development that allows you to have this stream of music that just builds up your game.
Before we go into more in depth questions about the project, I think a good thing to do is to talk about the music as well and the role that music plays within video games. And it can change the mood of a scene instantly. And that's why I absolutely love writing the music for video games. Because you can take a scene and say for your game, for example, Haiku, the robot lands in a certain area. And no matter what it looks like-- almost no matter what it looks like, we could put on a tense track or a really sweet track. And it completely changes how the player feels in that area. Even if you're in a dungeon, if the music is sweet and calm, you almost feel it's like a safe space. It's just like, oh, well Haiku just hangs out in the dungeon. And he's absolutely cool with that.
“ ... you can take a scene and say for your game, for example, Haiku, the robot lands in a certain area. And no matter what it looks like-- almost no matter what it looks like, we could put on a tense track or a really sweet track. And it completely changes how the player feels in that area.” Guy Jones
It's just a charming dungeon. Haiku is cool because the music is cool. The music is chill, so I'm chilled. Whereas, if it's tense and there's this drone, you immediately start questioning where you are. Do you do you agree with that? And have you found, since we've worked on tracks like that we basically have free range of what music we can do. Has that helped put across the mood that you want in each area?
Jordan Morris:
Totally. I think the best example to highlight that is boss fights. The first boss that you encounter that we've programmed isn't actually that hard. It's got very, very slow attack patterns. They're very telegraphed. So they're easy to predict and easy to like once you learn two or three patterns, it's actually quite easy boss fight. But the music is just so intense in the background that they get tensed up. And they play more carefully. And they pay attention to these things.
Whereas, if you just strip that music out and just visually look at it, you just see it's actually not that complicated. It's just two attack patterns or three attack patterns, and that's it that you have to learn.
Guy Jones:
That's a really good point. And that's a really good case spot to pick up on as well. Because that boss, it starts-- and if you take the music out, he drops and he drifts over. He's on this on this big chain and he moves across the area. When the gates shut on either side of the place, they're basically locked in with this boss. As soon as the boss actually starts, it lets out this disgusting electronic scream thing that we talk about how much we enjoy this horrible sound. It's amazing and geeky. It's loads and loads of sound design. But it let's out this horrible sound. And then it's just all this rapid music, and massive toms, big electric guitars. And it's just completely from a zero level of tension to 10.
And what I've noticed is while watching-- and this is why it's so fun to watch people playing through the demo. You can see them panic. [CHUCKLES] because even though the boss isn't necessarily moving all that quickly towards them, the music gives the impression that he's about to be on top of you.
So they just start panicking and that throws them off. And I think that's the thing is when people get used to playing a game and get used to a boss and they've been in the situation with the boss so many times, they actually realize they've got loads of time. But I really think it's the music and the sound design spurring on that anxiety and that tension in that need to act quickly. I love the role of music in video games. I love the role that that track plays in that game. I think we did quite well with that one, if I'm not blowing my own trumpet too much there.
Jordan Morris:
It's great. It's one of our favorites. Just for testing out other bosses, we could like to play at the same track as the background. And it also works just super well.
Licensing Assets vs. Purchasing a Buyout
Guy Jones:
So talking about music as well, did you do the same things? You said that you got sound effects from the free sounds website. Did you find music from places as well and try to include music? Or do you just simply forget about music?
Jordan Morris:
So I would just basically search for loops and that was it. I wouldn't specifically try to look for composed stuff. I just literally type in-- my style is pixel art. So I just put chiptune music, and that's it.
Guy Jones:
Yeah. How difficult did you find it to get ready made loops for video games like that and particularly ones that you really wanted?
Jordan Morris:
I don't really know how to answer that, to be honest. Most of the time, it was just an afterthought. When I started to take it more seriously, it was when you reached out to me. And obviously, because my main project, my bigger, more ambitious commercial project couldn't just be made off of free sound effects. It needed something a lot more professional.
And that's up until then, then I just didn't really-- it was just an afterthought, to be honest.
Guy Jones:
Yeah. It's really tricky because especially with indie game developers. There's such a small budget a lot of the time particularly indie game developers that are just starting out. And in some cases, they don't have a budget and in which case is near enough impossible to find music that they can actually use in their game and afford in their game. Because they can't necessarily afford a composer to do it from scratch.
If they do find a composer who can do it from scratch at a no-budget level, they usually don't have the skill set to deliver what's needed. And that includes tracks that seamlessly loop, the stems that also work looping. So you can do dynamic fading and stuff like that and then all the intros, and outros, and transitions that you need in a game.
If there's not the knowledge there, there's not the option to do those things. And it can make the whole thing really hard work. So it just put indie game developers in a really tricky position. And I think we were quite lucky that it was a project that we're both really passionate about, and we reached out. And I reached out to you, and we started talking. And we could come up with a really good way to deal with everything in terms of fees and doing the game and the soundtrack. And I'm really pleased with that, because it's a project I'm really, really passionate about to get and really passionately want to get it right.
But I think that's a rare thing to come across. And I think most game developers who want to make a really great game but don't have a budget, really struggle to get their music involved. And I think that's where the Alibi music library is really going to work and help. Because we've spent so long building this catalog. There's like 1,000 albums. And now, that whole catalog has been edited, in a way, that game developers can literally just go onto the site and pick and choose whatever tracks they want in any style. And it's absolutely mental really. And it really is any style and multiple albums in each style.
And it opens up the whole world of music and including music in their compositions. Yeah. And I suppose the advantage to using a library, like Alibi, if you can't afford to pay a composer to do it from scratch, is that you get the cost of the music at a tiny fraction really because you're just licensing the music out rather than buying it out, which means that they get the music that they need at like Hollywood-level music at a much cheaper amount of money.
So it's a really great way for composers to do it. And I don't think it really exists anywhere else. I know that you can find loops, but it's very hard to find the right loops for your game. And I think if you've got a game that you just bashing out for a bit of fun, I think you can just find the odd loop here ans there and just chuck it on and not worry about it. But if you're making a game, and you're a solo developer, and you want to put it out in the world, and you to sell it, and you want to grow a fanbase based on your video game, you can't cut corners with the music or sound effects even though it's probably the hardest and most expensive part of the whole development.
Advice for Indie Game Developers
I've really enjoyed this chat, Jordan. And I want to just end it if-- now, that we've met each other and you've got a solution for music and sound effects like you're in a good position and the whole Haiku game has really kicked off from the get go, you've developed a really big online community that love the game that have already invested into the game, and that's massive. It'd be quite nice just to get your thoughts for other video game developers who started out of what they can do and also maybe some techniques.
I know I reached out to you, but maybe some options for other people like what they can do about including sound effects and music in their game.
Jordan Morris:
Yeah so now I feel a little bit more rooted into the game development community as well on Twitter and stuff like this. There are huge game developers there like all the big names. But some other people, which are similar to myself in the same boat as I am, one good friend, I think he did it the best way if you're new. And that's just to find somebody else who's also new. Because if you're making your first game or maybe second game, which isn't a huge scope. It's quite small. It's quite manageable for a first time music composer or sound designer, then try and find people like that who are in a similar position as you are. Because usually, by the time you're doing your first game, it's not really exactly for money. It's just for learning experience. And it's for going through that process.
So the next game, you can be better at it, and better, and better, and better. So you've got to try and find somebody, in my opinion, that's in a similar position as you are but with music and composing. They need to go through that process of knowing. Because game development is much more different, I think, than it is just to compose one track. Because you have to think of OK, you have all of this going on in the background. But then you have these specific parts that come in and out and trigger when certain actions happen. And you can't control when those actions happen.
So you need to balance all that stuff out as well. So I assume it's quite a lot of work for somebody who's new at it. So just going through that process is probably the best thing and finding someone who is in a similar position as you.
Guy Jones:
Totally. That's amazing. Really, really good answer. And then there's another option for people if they're struggling to find a composer to work with or a sound design to work with, is to look at the Alibi site. And all of the music that you can listen to on there has all been edited to be ready and implemented into any video game.
You literally, just pay the license for the track. And you download all the stems, all the assets, the intros, and the outros. And you can do any manner of editing, any programming with the audio that you're comfortable with. And you've got all the options that are laid out. And it's such an easy way s add really good music into your game. And it's really exciting.
I was so pleased to be involved with the whole team editing through that stuff and getting it all prepared. Because it's really exciting. And I think it gives a really good option to all the video game developers.
So Jordan, thank you so much for spending a bit of time chatting. And I suppose we better get back to work on Haiku.
Jordan Morris:
Yeah. Yeah. We were just working on that, but had a half an hour break. And now, we're going to get back to work.
Guy Jones:
Cool. Cheers guys.
Jordan Morris:
It was great. So thanks for having me on anyway.
